Author Topic: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?  (Read 1032 times)

Offline Red

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2013, 08:48 pm »
I honestly don't understand vegans.

Vegetarians, yeah, I can understand the mindset. They squirm at the thought of eating dead animals, I would too.

Problem is they taste good.

As for vegans... Ah, I mean, do they even LOOK healthy? They're so pale, and stuff. There are vitamins needed for basic growth and stuff in meat, and other animal by products. I had a friend whose father "didnt believe" in medicine, so if his son had a deadly disease, with a definite cure, he'd rather let his son die than have him use medicine. :/ great parenting that.

This is, of course, one person. Not the entire group, but still.
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Offline bocchi!

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2013, 08:54 pm »
I honestly don't understand vegans.

Vegetarians, yeah, I can understand the mindset. They squirm at the thought of eating dead animals, I would too.

Problem is they taste good.

As for vegans... Ah, I mean, do they even LOOK healthy? They're so pale, and stuff. There are vitamins needed for basic growth and stuff in meat, and other animal by products. I had a friend whose father "didnt believe" in medicine, so if his son had a deadly disease, with a definite cure, he'd rather let his son die than have him use medicine. :/ great parenting that.

This is, of course, one person. Not the entire group, but still.
meat = medicine ?

Either way, I don't care what people eat. From what I've seen, the reasons vegans have for not eating any animal product are usually flawed. But, they aren't hurting anyone, let them do what they want. About your friend, I highly doubt his father would just let him die. my parents don't like medicine, and they would rarely let me get shots or anything like that. But if I was really sick, they'd give me something. I don't know him, but I can't see his dad just standing there watching his kid die. Also, if his son was lying in the hospital with a lethal disease, the doctors would give him something. Once the patient is near death, the parents don't have enough say to keep them from getting what they need to stay alive.
 

Offline Red

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2013, 08:59 pm »
meat = medicine ?

Either way, I don't care what people eat. From what I've seen, the reasons vegans have for not eating any animal product are usually flawed. But, they aren't hurting anyone, let them do what they want. About your friend, I highly doubt his father would just let him die. my parents don't like medicine, and they would rarely let me get shots or anything like that. But if I was really sick, they'd give me something. I don't know him, but I can't see his dad just standing there watching his kid die. Also, if his son was lying in the hospital with a lethal disease, the doctors would give him something. Once the patient is near death, the parents don't have enough say to keep them from getting what they need to stay alive.
yah lol, 'twas pretty unrelated, just wanted to share. But I don't know, the father said it himself. Thankfully you are right about the doctors giving it anyway.
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Offline Death83

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2013, 09:48 am »
I honestly don't understand vegans.

Vegetarians, yeah, I can understand the mindset. They squirm at the thought of eating dead animals, I would too.

Problem is they taste good.

As for vegans... Ah, I mean, do they even LOOK healthy? They're so pale, and stuff. There are vitamins needed for basic growth and stuff in meat, and other animal by products. I had a friend whose father "didnt believe" in medicine, so if his son had a deadly disease, with a definite cure, he'd rather let his son die than have him use medicine. :/ great parenting that.

This is, of course, one person. Not the entire group, but still.
You CAN get all those vitamins eating vegan....if you want to start eating stuff like Soy Almond Organic Whey Tofu Milk Extract  :))

This would take all the joy out of eating for me as a human being.

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2013, 09:53 am »
My religion is really mainly non veg lolol.

But we have etiquettes treating animals. When we slaughter them, we slaughter them fast enough that they die before feeling pain. Win-Win, in a way. So I don't feel guilty in any way.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 09:57 am by mshaafay »
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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2013, 09:54 am »
No. I really like meat. xD
 

Offline splatter

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2013, 09:57 am »
My life wouldn't be the same without fried chicken
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2013, 10:01 am »
My life wouldn't be the same without fried chicken





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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2013, 10:15 am »
You CAN get all those vitamins eating vegan....if you want to start eating stuff like Soy Almond Organic Whey Tofu Milk Extract  :))

This would take all the joy out of eating for me as a human being.
Same. I heard once they only eat things naturally. SO no eggs, milk, ect.

Yet they'll eat artificial foods. weird.
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Offline venn

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2013, 09:45 pm »
I will respond soon.  I've drafted a response, but I need to let it sit in my brain awhile so I don't forget anything important.  Please keep posting if you have something to say relevant to the topic.
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2013, 09:49 pm »
My diet is mainly 70% meat and 30% greens. So I'm more carnivore then herbivore.
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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2013, 09:52 pm »
Even though I don't like eating animals, meat is just sooooo good
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 02:46 am »
Hey.  I wanted to give this post a few days, but I think I'm ready to respond now.

Thanks for your input.  I realize that most of you are quite a bit younger than I am, but I'm not going to give you the kiddie version of my remarks or condescend to you.  People were constantly assuming I was too stupid to understand them when I was a kid, and I never liked it.  I do feel it's best, however, that I not provide links to any of the videos I could show you evidencing the level of cruelty acceptable for those who produce meat.  They are, however, not hard to find for those who wish (and have permission, where necessary) to look.  It's also crucial to understand that I am addressing actions, not people.  Nobody here is a bad person, regardless of where you stand on the debate.  I'm not here to debate your innate goodness, whether or not you act upon it.  I'm here to talk about what people do, not who they are.

For anyone who doesn't already know, it isn't a common practice for vegetarians or vegans to deny themselves or their families medical care.  That is a belief that some people hold due to religious convictions.  If you want to talk about that topic, please create a different thread for the discussion - assuming the forum rules would allow it.

To begin, let me explain my personal diet.  I don't really think there's a term for the category under which my diet falls.  I'm not quite a lacto-ovo vegetarian and not quite a vegan.  I will consume animal by-products like cheese and eggs and milk, but only if they come from an ethical farm (which, for me, means that no animals are killed there and that all produce is organic and free of GMOs).  I'm ok with these farms because the humans and animals live in symbiosis, which I find an acceptable condition.  I usually call myself vegan for the sake of avoiding long discussions and because it sometimes keeps people from trying to feed me stuff they think I can eat but which I can't.

I should also explain that my point of view comes primarily from living in the Midwest region of America.  A lot of the statistics I'm most familiar reflect American conditions and may (unless otherwise indicated) not apply to other countries.

Having clarified that point, here are my reasons for choosing to eat as I do:

-- Life is rare, wondrous, beautiful.  If I don't have to destroy it to live, why should I?  Of course, the point isn't quite as simple as that, and I realize it.  Every day of my life, plants and other non-animal life forms still have to die so that I can have the energy to live.  Every day, I choose my life over theirs and have to hope I can do enough good to make up for the energy I've taken.  Having chosen to live, I must decide on what I will subsist.  The plants I consume are more populous than animals and they conserve energy more efficiently because they are producers instead of consumers.  Any fungi I consume is, likewise, taken from a large population.  Animal by-products can be taken without harm to the animals, but this isn't the usual way of doing things (at least, not where I live or anywhere nearby).  It's on this last point that a large number of true vegans would feel I'm totally wrong.

I love my planet, and farming animals is very bad for it.  Here are just a few examples.  According to Scientific American, "Producing the annual beef diet of the average American emits as much greenhouse gas as a car driven more than 1,800 miles."  Not surprising when you consider that one large meat-production plant can produce as much waste as a small city in manure alone (Natural Resources Defense Council).  The NRDC also reports that hydrogen sulfide emitted from manure pits at large hog farms causes flu-like symptoms and, in higher concentrations, brain damage in humans.  And environmentally harmful practices aren't just concentrated in large meat operations; they are increasingly spreading to smaller groups, such as the coastal communities in the Philippines and other parts of the world where, as described by The Marine Conservation Society, many small fisherman are trying to compete with factory farms by putting poison or even explosives into the water.    These are only a few examples of how meat production poisons our planet.

-- Compassion often stands as the key factor to many important ethical systems.  Indeed, many - if not most - of those who eat meat adhere to an ethical point of view that advocates compassion.  The act of choosing to eat meat involves an inability to apply compassion, to manifest empathy, for that which has been killed (and that's really not surprising in a society with so much packaging and processing that it's hard to see any resemblance between an animal in its natural habitat and an animal on your plate).

This empathy is sometimes easier to see when applied to more familiar ethical contexts.  Consider, for instance, that torturing and killing an animal is an extreme form of bullying - a type so intense that most human bullies would blanch at participating.

The production and preparation of meat contributes to gender stereotypes.  Males are conditioned (often by the meat or weapons industries) to view eating meat as a sign of power, while females are often taught their place is to cook (but only in amateur, domestic - and not professional - settings) and that this duty involves preparing meat.  Just look at examples of meat (or, in the case of hunting, gun) advertising; it won't take you long to encounter a gender stereotype.

We often feel it's justified to kill our animal cousins because we say they're of a different species.  How many racists, for centuries past, have used the argument that blacks, Native Americans, Latinos, and others deserve to be treated badly because they are (or so it was often thought and proclaimed) to be of a different species?  Unless you're a cannibal, deciding to eat meat is an act of species discrimination.

All we need to do to understand that participating in a meat-eating lifestyle is cultivate our imagination.  Almost everyone can tap into their sense of empathy and see that the choice to be a meat-eater entails cruelty - all it takes is the ability to conceive that others, regardless of species, feel discomfort, loss, and pain.  The best way to begin?  Spend time with animals.  They'll provide the evidence.

These last arguments are primarily ethical in nature, but I'd like to address a few points of logic that have come up (or that come up so frequently in this sort of debate that they will probably eventually come up and might as well be answered now).

-- I often hear the phrase, "If [name an animal] weren't meant to be eaten, then it wouldn't be made of meat."  Dogs are made of meat.  Porcupines are made of meat.  But, perhaps most relevant, humans are made of meat.  This argument only applies if you're a cannibal and is an extension of the species discrimination argument to which I alluded above.

-- I'm often told that we're meant to eat animals because they are weaker than we are.  By that logic, I should be able to torture or kill anyone weaker than myself without the police, or anyone else, minding; that's very much the mentality of the bully.  By that logic, you shouldn't give anti-venom to someone who's just been bitten by a snake because you'd have to say that the person ought to die if their body isn't more powerful than the poison.

-- A lot of people claim, in essence, that they won't eat ethically because they don't like to try new foods.  But trying new foods isn't really all that bad.  Our taste in food (except in a very general sense that doesn't require eating meat) isn't something inborn - for most of us, it's a matter of culture.  The Journal of Consumer Research concluded, after conducting a rigorous study, that people "did not show a preference for meat if they were not told it was meat" - in other words, that people tend to like meat because they're told it's good and not because their bodies or taste buds require it.  And this is good news; it shows what I've discovered in my own life - that it's easy to switch to a meat-free diet.

The argument that goes hand-in-hand with the "I won't try new foods" plea is the notion that meat inherently tastes good (essentially, this is the "I like it" argument).  This one is easy to foil.  Many people love the taste of candy with red 40 in it - that doesn't mean they want the tumors and hyperactivity problems that, according to a report of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, red 40 is capable of causing.  In even simpler terms, I can put tasteless poison in your food, and it will still taste good to you if you liked it (or thought you liked it) before.  That doesn't mean you should eat it.

-- I often encounter people who indicate that they're powerless to change anything because animals are already being killed.  This point, however, is an illogical one.  In the first place, if we were to follow this logic, we would be justified in giving up on any legitimate social cause.  Why save the polar bears when one has already died?  Why stop them knocking down your house if they're already here with the bulldozers?  Why keep that guy across the street from stabbing your neighbor - after all, he already bought the knife?  In the second place, we can make a difference.  Meat-producing companies often waste resources due to inefficiency, but they aren't going to deliberately produce something that they know they can't sell.  For each person who stops eating meat, a message is sent to the meat industry - and smaller meat-producing operations, for that matter - that the market for their products is decreasing and that they'll have to find a more ethical way to farm.  I myself know, personally, dozens of people who have already begun eroding the meat business, and I've seen many reports of others.  The number of vegans and vegetarians is growing, especially among young people (USA Today), and so I'm not surprised that I'm seeing more and more meat alternatives as the years pass.  The increase in vegetarian and vegan offerings in my own town (not a place known for ethical eating) has increased by about 400% since I first became a vegetarian over a decade ago - and most of that in the last year-and-a-half.  It isn't already decided just because those in authority have approved; you can make a difference.

-- Another common anti-vegetarian-and-vegan argument makes the incorrect assumption that humans are carnivores and relays the notion that humans must eat meat to survive and be healthy for this reason.  That's incorrect, as any basic (secular) science textbook will tell you.  Humans are detritus feeders, scavengers.  When you want a steak (assuming you're one of those who ever do), you don't tear the cow's flesh with your sharp claws or open its jugular with your vicious canine teeth, and you definitely don't eat your meat raw - at least, not if you don't want to get violently ill.

-- I'd also like to briefly address the comments I've seen about personal experiences.  It's important not to argue by case study.  Maybe you know a vegan who is pale or has health problems - that's a far cry from saying that all, or even most, vegans do.  I know ethical eaters who are ruddy, brawny, pale, dark, deathly ill, and in the bloom of health.  If your logic is sound and ethical eaters are unhealthy in some way that can easily be seen, then you should be able to apply the diagnosis in reverse - to be able to tell me, with a very small margin of error, who is vegan by looking at them.  But, naturally, you cannot - not any more than you can tell who is good or evil based on how pale their skin is or how much they cough.  This idea is another discriminatory one that stereotypes someone based on very limited experience - which is, ironically, exactly what's done to animals across the USA, and many other countries, every day.

As for the nutrition of ethical diets, here are some facts:

-- The Mayo clinic reports that vegetarians, on average, have a significantly decreased risk of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, and a number of types of cancer.  The rate of obesity among vegetarians is also lower than that among meat-eaters, as is the incidence of gall stones and kidney stones (Mayo clinic and the BMJ).

The specific issue that people often talk to me about in terms of my nutrition is whether or not I get enough protein.  Yes, I do.  So far as I can trace the issue, this myth about meat being the only viable source of protein was begun by a group of meat industry representatives.  In fact, many types of fruits, vegetables, dairy (including alternative dairy sources, many of which are healthier than cow's milk), nuts, seeds, and legumes contain more protein than meat per unit while not containing many of the unhealthy ingredients you find in meat, especially red meat (Novak reporting for Planet Green and the Mayo clinic).

Also, there were several questions or comments I didn't understand:

charriswag, what are the flawed arguments of which you speak and what is wrong with them?

Red, what do you mean by the phrase "artificial foods"?  Could you provide an example or two?

I welcome any further comments (especially if actually made by one of the folks for whom the thread was intended).  Thanks again.
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 03:12 am »
...
You need a life.
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Offline glowingbluewolf

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 03:14 am »
tl;dr
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2013, 07:33 pm »
As you can tell from my post, I have a life and am using it to pursue goals I find worthwhile and fulfilling.  I hope you can say the same.

"tl;dr" - "too lazy; didn't read"?  Then why post?  Just to raise your post count?

A weak rebuttal only strengthens the argument that came before.  There are people at Sploder capable of engaging in this debate; you can't fool me as to that.  I'd love to see their responses.
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2013, 07:36 pm »
As you can tell from my post, I have a life and am using it to pursue goals I find worthwhile and fulfilling.  I hope you can say the same.

"tl;dr" - "too lazy; didn't read"?  Then why post?  Just to raise your post count?

A weak rebuttal only strengthens the argument that came before.  There are people at Sploder capable of engaging in this debate; you can't fool me as to that.  I'd love to see their responses.
Chill xD
 It was a joke. But holy crap, that was a rather long post =P
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Offline glowingbluewolf

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2013, 07:44 pm »
As you can tell from my post, I have a life and am using it to pursue goals I find are worthwhile and fulfilling.  I hope you can say the same.

"tl;dr" - "too lazy; didn't read"?  Then why post?  Just to raise your post count?

A weak rebuttal only strengthens the argument that came before.  There are people at Sploder capable of engaging in this debate; you can't fool me as to that.  I'd love to see their responses.
Actually, it's "too long; didn't read."

While I enjoy the fact that you made your points clear and expressed your opinions, it looks like you wrote a summary on "War and Peace." And sorry for not wanting to read a long speech on vegetarianism on that day at 3 am. I was tired. I actually enjoy debates; I loved going to model UN the two years I could and did. I just am not in the mood to debate whenever this thread decides to pop up.
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2013, 08:09 pm »
Heh, heh.  I'm actually feeling really good today and am a very peaceful person; I'm just also very intense.  It's apparently not a common mixture of traits.  As I tell people on facebook, "Imagine everything I post being read by Bob Ross."
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2013, 08:12 pm »
It needs more happy little trees then c:
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2013, 08:13 pm »
I just checked it.  It's a little over 2300 words.  That's nothing.  It took maybe 45-60 minutes to write, and most of that was fact checking.

Oh, wait.  I'm a writer...
 

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2013, 08:16 pm »
My personal longest piece of writing is 6307 words (Just checked on Google Docs =P). It's a fiction story I wrote for a school project a while back. xP
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Offline Death83

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2013, 12:34 pm »
Not much argument to be made here really. Everyone pretty much knows is much healthier to eat veg/vegan. It boils down to personal lifestyle choice.
As I stated the only problems I have with meat (as you mentioned also) are the chemicals they introduce into it and some of the horrible conditions that the animals are kept in.
I saw a chicken slaughter house vid one time.....disturbing...and I'm not squeamish. They kept like 10 of them jammed in a 3x3 cage. They deserve more respect than that.
 I have similar feelings about living things, but I have no problem eating them either, I am simply part of the food chain. The animals I eat have killed and consumed other living things and so on and so forth. These animals did it for the very same reason I do...to not be hungry..to live and thrive. No other reason is necessary really.
And really vegans do the same thing, consume life to live. It's just a matter of perspective of what life is to you. The blade of grass is just as alive as the cow.


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Offline venn

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2013, 07:19 pm »
Princess Windeh, that's actually probably more than the typical adult has ever written.  College-level papers begin around 5-8k words (here in America, at least).

Death83, thanks for the response.  To clarify, although it is important to me, I'm more concerned with the effect of your ethical choices on me and my loved ones than I am with the effect of your health on you. I've already answered your points in the original post.  I do have one thing to add, however.

Arguing ad populum (or making an appeal to the majority) involves assuming something is correct because many or most people do it (or because it seems that way).

Arguing ad verecundiam (or making an appeal to authority) involves assuming something is correct because a certain person or type of person does it or endorses it (or because it seems that way).  It's to avoid this type of fallacy that we cite information instead of people.  We explain where we got our information because it isn't sufficient to just say Bill or Rev. Jones or Dr. Williams believes it without their basing that contention on research or analysis.

Both are fallacious types of argument, as you can probably see when you consider the following examples thereof:

(mainly ad populum)
- Come on, people kill Buddhists all the time.  It doesn't matter if I kill one.
- This article says most people experience periods of depression; something must be wrong with me because I feel happy.
(mainly ad verecundiam)
- That rich guy likes this painting.  It's better than other paintings.
- Dr. Smith, who has a history degree, says the Crusades never happened.  That means they didn't happen.

Obviously, not one of these arguments is valid.

glowingbluewolf (sorry - I missed a post of yours), I perfectly understand being tired and not wanting to participate in a debate.  But, when I don't want to participate, I don't participate.  I don't walk out and deliver a speech before deciding to run off the stage and leave the hall.  I don't tell the debaters that they're taking too long and then refuse to answer their query as to why I think so.  You can either be part of the dialogue or not.  If you speak up, somebody may answer.  Since we're on a forum, they have a right to expect that you will make a reasonable effort to participate if you bother to respond at all.
 

Offline Prince Daydream

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2013, 07:24 pm »
This discussion made me hungry D:
 

Offline bocchi!

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2013, 08:11 pm »
@venn, In response to what you said about wind's comment; most people on this forum are 12 or younger, so dont expect many good arguments unless you get a promotion. lol
 

Offline Death83

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2013, 01:03 am »
@Venn
Sorry, we're you referring to my arguments? I was a bit confused who you were directing that too.
As far as my ethical choices harming your loved ones- Man, wake up and look around, my decision to eat meat is the LAST thing you need to be worried about harming your family. There are much bigger and pressing ethical issues to be worried about.
Not that these things should be ignored but lets keep it in perspective here. Thats like me saying your decision to drive a car is harming my family with pollution.

And as for being more concerned about your family's health than mine, that's the way it's supposed to be. I'm certainly more concerned with my family's health than yours. Not that I dont wish you all well, but my family comes first before anyone. Right?

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Offline ju44

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2013, 01:07 am »
I recognize the fact that the food I'm having cost another animal their life.
Then I feel special because another living thing died to keep me alive.
Welcome, comrade!
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Offline jx575

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2013, 01:15 am »
i see what you mean

Offline venn

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Re: Any vegetarians and/or vegans here?
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2013, 07:17 am »
Alright.  I get it.  Keep it mindless.  Pretty pictures and texting abbreviations.

Later, Sploder forum.